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  1. #11
    Wildfire twinshia's Avatar
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    Double posted. Apologies.
    Last edited by twinshia; 03-15-2015 at 11:44 PM.
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  2. #12
    ∞ Infinite Possibility ∞ FireclawX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinshia View Post
    Because Unions increase minimum wage constantly and if they are not opposed it will become unsustainable,
    unless it already is.
    They also organise strikes, which should be illegal, in my opinion.



    You are the one who is kidding your self.
    I have no interest in your speculative ideas.



    Yes, it would.
    There is nothing else I can say in response.
    Wages are a liability and when a liability is greater the turnover is less.
    I am not attempting to sound patronising.
    You sell some thing for 100 euro in an hour and the wage is 5 euro so you have 95 euro profit.
    Where the wage is 15 euro, you have 85 euro profit.
    It is not opinion, it is mathematical fact that higher wages decreases profit.



    False, the company lives off miniscule amounts of money on an individual scale, the point is the number is multiplied by tens of thousands,
    because there are tens of thousands of employees,
    which turns the actual liability in to millions of euros or dollars.



    Because they own the companies.
    It is called property.



    Yes, they should invest it in business, which is what tends to happen because they want more money.
    And that is good, because as I said before the reason products and services exist at all is because extremely wealthy people organise the production of them out of greed.
    That is the absurdity of capatalism and yet it is the only system that works.



    "Some" does not exist and will never exist. It is the unattainable ever increasing unknown number,
    just like "reasonable" and "oppressive".



    Medium and Small sized businesses would and it would not be a few dollars because it is not simply one employee but a multiple of employees.
    It has to do with a principle of penny squeezing that should be adopted by all sincere business ventures.
    Absolute reduction of liability is the only way to secure the health of a business.



    But why would you?
    And also, what happens when that happens?
    Then you want to double it again and again and again and again and again.



    Which is taxed and pays for social services or the business men use it to invest in new businesses.



    "Chump Change" does not mean any thing.
    It is just a colloquialism.



    But they would be on social welfare if they did not have the job in the first place,
    which only exists because the company has conservative principles.



    False, as Walmart would reduce the amount of employees it takes upon itself to make up for it.



    Define "livable".
    If they did not have the job in the first place they would have no "livable" wage any way.
    Aside from that, a business exists to produce a product,
    not to provide for individuals.
    The individual comes to a mutual agreement with a company in order to receive money for labour.
    Striking or Unions are simply theft, nothing else.



    I feel as though I am repeating myself because I am.
    Forced economic equality does not matter if in the process the quality of life is reduced.
    What you may not realise is that the outcome of this would be that every one has a bad life as opposed to some people having a good life, or worse,
    that the quality of life drops to unprecedented lows.
    I am aware you are from Slovenia, so I do not mean to offend,
    but there are just so many obvious references I can make to geographic regions to prove this:
    the former Yugoslavian countries, the Russian Federation, Vietnam, Cuba and the People's Republic.
    All countries with previous applications of Marxist ideology and their "progress" was impeded greatly in comparison to capitalist countries.
    Let's stop talking about a small sum of money and look at the big picture.
    I don't feel like re-typing something that already exists, so I'm gonna quote an article I linked earlier.

    Spoiler: quote
    Here’s where things get interesting: A full-time worker (40 hours a week) in the U.S. making minimum wage earns only $15,080 a year. For some context, median individual earnings are $40,404 a year (BLS), while the U.S. poverty level is $23,550 (HHS). Full-time minimum wage earners make 62.7 percent less than median income and are 36.0 percent below the poverty level. (The number you probably hear quoted most often is median household income at $51,017, according to the census. The minimum is 70.4 percent below that).

    If the minimum wage had merely kept up with price inflation since 1968, it would currently be at $10.77. That is $22,401.60 per year, bringing wages closer to the poverty line.


    I am not suggesting that you just keep raising the minimum wage arbitrarily. Raise it to match a livable wage, and raise it to match inflation. Livable being defined as the poverty line (about $23,000 per year in the USA). Raising the minimum wage from $7.50 to $11 would make it adjusted for both inflation and the current poverty standards in the USA.

    You are correct, it's not the companies job to provide for the people. It's the companies job to make products and be profitable.
    However it is the job of the government to provide for the people and ensure that they are able to live adequately in their country.
    Remember, the government sets the minimum wage, not the companies. The reason unions exist is to counteract the lobbying power that companies have. Companies lobby very hard to ensure that the minimum wage does not rise, so in exchange for the absolutely bullshit power of lobbying that the companies have, the workers are given the right to unionize in order to counteract the stupidly legal process of quite literally bribing politicians with money that we call "lobbying".

    I'm not arguing that capitalism is a bad system. Trust me, I live in America. It is the greatest country in the world. I live in a society in which I am rarely limited by anything but my own ability, and I am more than grateful for that. However that's not to say that the system is perfect. There are many people who ARE limited by more than their own ability. There are many people in this nation who cannot experience it's greatness because they are limited by the flaws of the system. While it is the greatest nation on earth right now, that does not mean that it can rest on it's laurels. Nothing is perfect, and this isn't a matter of conservative principles versus liberal principals. Don't drag that political bullshit into this. This is about everyday people who get shafted, the wealth gap which just continues to increase, and the people who are denied opportunity. You can't make up facts. You can't make up numbers.
    Here are numbers. No political BS. Just numbers.
    Spoiler: video



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  3. #13
    Wildfire twinshia's Avatar
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    Every time I post it double posts...
    Or may be I quoted by mistake.
    Apologies.
    Last edited by twinshia; 03-16-2015 at 01:23 AM.
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  4. #14
    Wildfire twinshia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    Let's stop talking about a small sum of money and look at the big picture.
    No, let us not stop talking about it,
    because that is the point I am trying to make.
    A liability is a liability, no matter its size.
    In order to secure a business any liability should be removed in so far as it can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    If the minimum wage had merely kept up with price inflation since 1968, it would currently be at $10.77. That is $22,401.60 per year, bringing wages closer to the poverty line. Raise it to match a livable wage, and raise it to match inflation. Livable being defined as the poverty line (about $23,000 per year in the USA).
    What is the poverty line dictated by?
    What are the variables which dictate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    However it is the job of the government to provide for the people and ensure that they are able to live adequately in their country.
    False. the goverment governs and regulates.
    There is also no in itself definition of "adequate" and the government must make sacrifices in order to ensure the survival of its influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    The reason unions exist is to counteract the lobbying power that companies have.
    False. If you want to counteract lobbying then you should become a congressman and hinder the act at its source.
    Unions exist for various reasons,
    but usually they enact unrealistically high pay rises for people who do very simple work badly and also organise strikes several days in a year on a nationwide scale,
    if we are talking about the Federal Republic of Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    Companies lobby very hard to ensure that the minimum wage does not rise, so in exchange for the absolutely bullshit power of lobbying that the companies have, the workers are given the right to unionize in order to counteract the stupidly legal process of quite literally bribing politicians with money that we call "lobbying".
    Then become a congressman and hinder it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    This is about everyday people who get shafted, the wealth gap which just continues to increase, and the people who are denied opportunity.
    What are "everyday" people in comparison to other people?
    Cry me a river. Seriously.
    The wealth gap is there because there are people who own industry and those who work in it.
    That is how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireclawX View Post
    You can't make up facts. You can't make up numbers.
    Here are numbers. No political BS. Just numbers.
    I do not deny the wealth gap meme.
    I have said this from the beginning.
    The shape of an ideal state is inequality,
    you just can not have it any other way.

    Also, opportunity for what?
    For education? There are only so many skilled teachers or lecturers that of course it has to be sectioned off to a minority elite.
    And the universities and schools need to keep up costs by raising fees.
    The government can not pay for it as you know because you are so haunted by national debt,
    you must understand that.

    So opportunities for every one are not sustainable. End of story.
    Last edited by twinshia; 03-16-2015 at 01:24 AM.
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  5. #15
    ... ... ... ... ... ... Stormcrusher94's Avatar
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    Now I really want to know if somebody actually studies economics here, cause otherwise we won't be going anywhere


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shikamaruuu View Post
    Rofl no! I've only ever been drunk one .

  6. #16
    Wildfire twinshia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrusher94 View Post
    Now I really want to know if somebody actually studies economics here, cause otherwise we won't be going anywhere
    What does an idea matter if you can not exercise it in your own head?
    If you can not come to a logical conclusion on your own about some thing then why would you trust it?
    It is almost as if you just have faith in some thing some one said because it seemed more eloquent or heartfelt than what the other said,
    when in fact you do not understand what is going on there at all.
    Last edited by twinshia; 03-16-2015 at 01:38 AM.
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  7. #17
    ∞ Infinite Possibility ∞ FireclawX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinshia View Post
    No, let us not stop talking about it,
    because that is the point I am trying to make.
    A liability is a liability, no matter its size.
    In order to secure a business any liability should be removed in so far as it can be.



    What is the poverty line dictated by?
    What are the variables which dictate it?



    False. the goverment governs and regulates.
    There is also no in itself definition of "adequate" and the government must make sacrifices in order to ensure the survival of its influence.



    False. If you want to counteract lobbying then you should become a congressman and hinder the act at its source.
    Unions exist for various reasons,
    but usually they enact unrealistically high pay rises for people who do very simple work badly and also organise strikes several days in a year on a nationwide scale,
    if we are talking about the Federal Republic of Germany.



    Then become a congressman and hinder it.



    What are "everyday" people in comparison to other people?
    Cry me a river. Seriously.
    The wealth gap is there because there are people who own industry and those who work in it.
    That is how it works.



    I do not deny the wealth gap meme.
    I have said this from the beginning.
    The shape of an ideal state is inequality,
    you just can not have it any other way.

    Also, opportunity for what?
    For education? There are only so many skilled teachers or lecturers that of course it has to be sectioned off to a minority elite.
    And the universities and schools need to keep up costs by raising fees.
    The government can not pay for it as you know because you are so haunted by national debt,
    you must understand that.

    So opportunities for every one are not sustainable. End of story.
    And that marks the end of our discussion. You can't seem to be convinced otherwise from your extreme views.
    You have taken capitalism to the extreme that communism took socialism. The only to achieve a stable sustainable society is through the combination of both socialistic and capitalistic values, leaning more towards the capitalistic side. This is how America succeeded and why it is the #1 economy in the world today. Cry me a river if you don't agree. It doesn't really matter. Take away the unions, the minimum wage, the laws that protect the people, and you won't have a country, you'll have a leader who's head is impaled on a stick in the nations capital. Sure, extreme capitalism is nice. For some. But for the majority for whom it's not, good luck holding back the tides of revolt.

    I think the words of President Eisenhower say it best.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

    America's the best country in the world not because we're capitalistic. It's because of all the other things that we have in combination with that. Don't take America's success and pin it only on capitalism, and then try to hold up your values on some pedestal. We have things called rights here. Rights to liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. Those things are what make America great. They are the foundations of capitalism, as well as the reason for welfare, and all the other socialistic policies we have today. A society prospers when it's people prosper. Opportunity for everyone may be impossible, but if we don't try, then society is ruined. The world has 7 billion people, and I'm not saying that we can make a perfect world where everyone's happy. For every shirt you buy, someone has to suffer in a sweatshop. But those days are coming to an end. The world is changing. Machines are able to replace the menial jobs that people once did. And once they do the world will experience a equal to if not greater than the agricultural revolution of 10,000 BC. Outdated thinking like yours is what holds us back. It's all the people who deprive opportunity from others because they think that somehow they are inherently better. Remember who you are. You are human. You drew a lottery when you were born and you might have gotten lucky. That's all you are. However when you start, you have the opportunity to work and to better yourself. That is a fundamental right of all human beings. That opportunity cannot be denied by anyone.
    Last edited by FireclawX; 03-16-2015 at 02:26 AM.

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  8. #18
    i like your way of thinking twinshia

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  10. #19
    Hot User Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrusher94 View Post
    Now I really want to know if somebody actually studies economics here, cause otherwise we won't be going anywhere
    obviously not. otherwise this debate would've ended in the GAD thread

    btw, i hope this doesn't end here cus it's was very interesting and fun to read ^^
    if you guise want a illogical point of view on things, then i'd be happy to join in these debates(when i have the time). and when i say illogical, i mean, no facts just my point of view on things >_> but that probably wouldn't be too smart cus we'll end up breaking the internet

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  12. #20
    Faith naru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrusher94 View Post
    Now I really want to know if somebody actually studies economics here, cause otherwise we won't be going anywhere
    took an economics class it would not have been any benefit to this discussion, it was all about math and stock and business blah blah

    This discussion is socioeconomic, however I can't bring myself to get into it

    Fire glad to see you made a thread for this (yes I just mainly posted here to tease you) though I am on topic
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